I think you gave a hint as to the resolution of the question, "How much would things change if everyone "meditated?"
"When you are better integrated, you are in a meditative state naturally..."
So first, as someone who has (just twice) conducted (and given up on) meditation research, I would say take all such research results with not just a grain, but a few tons of salt.
I just had a conversation with a young meditation researcher who has never even attempted to meditate, for fear he would "lose objectivity.". I asked him if he had any means of knowing if at ANY point during research, his subjects are actually meditating.
Short answer: No.
Well, if the 'meditating" subjects spend the entire experimental period doing your taxes or engaging in sexual fantasies or coming up with revenge schemes, I doubt if your research is going to be of any value whatsoever.
It was also obvious that in his responses, he barely had a clue what "meditation" means.
Let's start from the other end, which Avigail described beautifully - being in an integrated state.
What if, even among the most "traumatized," we found ways to connect to them, and to support them in being connected, through service to others, through somatic experience, through artistic expression, love, compassion, etc - that led directly to greater integration.
Now let's change the wording of the theme of this piece:
"To the extent people are able, through integrated service, embodied awareness and artistic expression, gain at first, glimpses of the open, flexible awareness that is the hallmark of integrated functioning, then through support, slowly but naturally, integrate those glimpses more and more into their daily lives, not only will traumatic symptoms (including physiological ones) resolve, but they will move past "mental illness" concerns toward lives of flourishing and thriving.
As far as the past ages of religion, I doubt more than .00001% of people who prayed did so in the form of contemplative prayer or meditation.
At least, in regard to trauma, this has been my observation of possibilities in working with many suffering from various traumas.
Thank you for your interesting and valid comment! I agree that any meditation study based just on participants’ reporting is useless. I’m only interested in studies where participants’ brains were scanned. Real meditation has a predictable impact on the brain.
My main point is: that no matter how much meditation people engage with, it will not change their brain permanently and that is because there is one component that is missing. To integrate our executive and limbic systems (vertical integration), we have to establish permanent connections between them. This is achieved by training the executive to ‘listen’ to limbic information—mostly transmitted via our feelings—and receive this information without interruption. The more we practise, the better the connections will be. This is permanent and the outcomes are observable in my work and my personal practice as a matter of routine.
Dan Siegel writes about vertical integration and its expected outcome. No doubt that (real) meditation, or even just breathing practice give people (who can do them) better access to the prefrontal cortex (executive). But once there, there is another step that has to be done in order to achieve permanent changes to connectivity. I hope this makes sense.
It does make sense. I wonder though, if i have failed to convey what I mean by "meditation." Let's put aside that word and look at your comment regarding what is needed:
" training the executive to ‘listen’ to limbic information—mostly transmitted via our feelings—and receive this information without interruption. The more we practise, the better the connections will be. This is permanent and the outcomes are observable in my work and my personal practice as a matter of routine."
Ok, now I'm going to give you a definition of Flexible attention and open hearted awareness
DEFINITION: From the center of awareness (Siegel's hub) attending, in a fluid, spontaneous way, to the MANNER IN WHICH ONE IS ATTENDING, allowing, in an open, non judgmental manner, the full range of information not only from emotions (limbic) but from instinctive and even the most subtle physiological information, while remaining open to intuitive awareness beyond the rational."
In my research on non judgmental attention to pain sensations, I scoured the literature distinguishing between "reduction in perception of pain" and physiological changes. In the 1990s, the literature was somewhat iffy, but in the 22 years since, there is a wealth of information showing that the kind of attention I'm speaking of in fact brings about change - lasting change - not only in the physiology but the anatomy of the brain, and not only the brain, but the ANS, endocrine, musculo-skeletal and other systems of the body.
The mind-gut connection (affects of the CNS on the enteric nervous system) shows quite radical physiological changes, long lasting, not only in the biome but other aspects of the action of neurons, hormones and more.
I don't think we're actually disagreeing. I already had problems with the way people were using the word "meditation" (and even worse "mindfulness") back in the 1970s when I first began examining the research. I gave up in 1999 (after having my dissertation accepted by a journal, but choosing not to follow through) because I felt a whole different approach was needed.
Whether we call it meditation or not, obviously I fully agree that there are ways of training the prefrontal cortex that leads to permanent changes in connectivity. Whether we call this mindfulness, meditation, contemplative prayer, attention training, or just good therapy, is, to me, of relatively little concern.
hi again - I would just add, I'm working on an online sleep course. The history of non-pharmaceutical insomnia treatment is one of trying (pun intended) to help people STOP "trying" to get to sleep. This effort fulness is another sign of the "control" attitude that is endemic in our society (we may see it more intensely in traumatized individuals but it seems almost all pervading)
There is a new trend (an old one dating back thousands of years, of course) in "effortless mindfulness," of which Adyashanti and Loch Kelly are exemplars. But you don't have to go to meditation techniques for this - Psychologist Les Fehmi, for over 45 years, simply taught people to notice "space" (space in the mind and "physical" space "out there") which led to dramatic reductions in trauma symptoms, anxiety, depression, chronic pain and much more.
I wouldn't mind a temporary "stop" for the words "meditation" or "mindfulness" and instead gently, flowingly, guiding people to become acquainted with the magic, ever accessible riches of attention, awareness, open-minded/open heartedness, etc.
Thanks Don. It’s nice to hear about your work and your interests as well as your thoughts and thank you so much for subscribing and taking the time to read my stuff. For me as a practitioner of psychotherapy, a really important point is for people to grasp that change in us does not happen in the ‘ether'. It happens in our embodied brain. There is no real and lasting change in us without changes in brain connectivity. The better the flow of energy and information is in the brain, the closer we come to becoming what we call ‘healthy’ psychologically, which of course impacts on our physical health, our behaviour in relationship with others and our ability to fulfil our potential. Please keep telling me about your work when you get a chance. I have just published another article. Wonder what you would think about it… Best wishes.
Thanks Avigail. From your comment "the flow of energy and information in the brain," which sounds like Dan Siegel's definition of mind ("flow of energy and information") I assume you're familiar with his work. I like his reminder that the embodied change you're beautifully reminding us of occurs in the brain, throughout the body, and in a way (as the people who subscribe to the "enactive cognition" like to say) in relationship - relationship to others, and to the world at large. Siegel refers to this as "transpirational integration."
I'm also in the midst of revising our website, and just after I wrote the last comment to you, I went back to edit a section on neuroplasticity, placebo and epigenetics. Even in the past 8 years or so when I first wrote the pages on those topics, the research on these has exploded. Our every thought ("thought" meaning integrated thought/emotion/impulse/sensation) has the potential to "turn on" or "turn off" various genes for all kinds of physical and psychological phenomena (epigenetics); our "faith" (embodied belief) can have profound physiological effects on virtually every system of the body; and the brain changes - often with permanent effects - every time we engage in sustained, integrated mind-emotions-embodied attention with sufficient affective and volitional intensity.
Absolutely, and you are correct, Don. My therapeutic framework is based on Siegel’s Interpersonal Neurobiology. If you read my short book _Therapy Without A Therapist_ I explain it all there. Please share the link to your website. Are you a colleague? Avigail
Did mostly psychological evaluations (several thousand of them), devoted most of my time to working on the integral yoga psychology of Sri Aurobindo. I'll be delighted to share the link - it may be awhile (some weeks before our site is fully revised)
Actually, come to think of it, I quoted Siegel from time to time, even in the evaluations I wrote for judges who were on the verge of turning down applicants for disability applications. Although the attorneys I worked for said my evaluations were always helpful, I don't think the disability judges ever quite knew what to make of references to the wheel of awareness or upper lower or left right brain integration!
It was Dr John Hagelin. His bio as was offered by the organisers of the talk (The Scientific & Medical Network) reads:
"Dr John Hagelin is a world-renowned quantum physicist, educator, public policy expert, and leading proponent of peace. Dr Hagelin received his M.A. and Ph.D. from Harvard University, and conducted pioneering research at CERN (the European Center for Particle Physics) and SLAC (the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center). His scientific contributions in the fields of electroweak unification, grand unification, super-symmetry and cosmology include some of the most cited references in the physical sciences. He is also responsible for the development of a highly successful grand unified field theory based on the superstring. Dr Hagelin is therefore among the elite cadre of physicists who have fulfilled Einstein’s dream of a “theory of everything” through their mathematical formulation of the unified field—the most advanced scientific knowledge of our time."
Another excellent run through on the malign influence of materialism upon scientific research and the limits it places upon our development as a species. Speaking truth to power and rejecting fear. 👍💚
I found this a fascinating exploration of materialism and its pitfalls. Thank you so much Avigail for such an interesting piece. I am indebted to you to know that 'mitochondria in our cells display social behaviour' - how far-reaching is that going to be??!!
Thank you so much Jude for your very kind comment. Yes, if science works honestly the truth will eventually emerge. It was Thomas Kuhn who said that paradigms shift when the weight of ‘anomalies’ becomes too heavy, or something like this. The truth cannot be hidden for too long. It has a way of revealing itself… Thank you for the important work you do and for reading my articles.
I think you gave a hint as to the resolution of the question, "How much would things change if everyone "meditated?"
"When you are better integrated, you are in a meditative state naturally..."
So first, as someone who has (just twice) conducted (and given up on) meditation research, I would say take all such research results with not just a grain, but a few tons of salt.
I just had a conversation with a young meditation researcher who has never even attempted to meditate, for fear he would "lose objectivity.". I asked him if he had any means of knowing if at ANY point during research, his subjects are actually meditating.
Short answer: No.
Well, if the 'meditating" subjects spend the entire experimental period doing your taxes or engaging in sexual fantasies or coming up with revenge schemes, I doubt if your research is going to be of any value whatsoever.
It was also obvious that in his responses, he barely had a clue what "meditation" means.
Let's start from the other end, which Avigail described beautifully - being in an integrated state.
What if, even among the most "traumatized," we found ways to connect to them, and to support them in being connected, through service to others, through somatic experience, through artistic expression, love, compassion, etc - that led directly to greater integration.
Now let's change the wording of the theme of this piece:
"To the extent people are able, through integrated service, embodied awareness and artistic expression, gain at first, glimpses of the open, flexible awareness that is the hallmark of integrated functioning, then through support, slowly but naturally, integrate those glimpses more and more into their daily lives, not only will traumatic symptoms (including physiological ones) resolve, but they will move past "mental illness" concerns toward lives of flourishing and thriving.
As far as the past ages of religion, I doubt more than .00001% of people who prayed did so in the form of contemplative prayer or meditation.
At least, in regard to trauma, this has been my observation of possibilities in working with many suffering from various traumas.
Thank you for your interesting and valid comment! I agree that any meditation study based just on participants’ reporting is useless. I’m only interested in studies where participants’ brains were scanned. Real meditation has a predictable impact on the brain.
My main point is: that no matter how much meditation people engage with, it will not change their brain permanently and that is because there is one component that is missing. To integrate our executive and limbic systems (vertical integration), we have to establish permanent connections between them. This is achieved by training the executive to ‘listen’ to limbic information—mostly transmitted via our feelings—and receive this information without interruption. The more we practise, the better the connections will be. This is permanent and the outcomes are observable in my work and my personal practice as a matter of routine.
Dan Siegel writes about vertical integration and its expected outcome. No doubt that (real) meditation, or even just breathing practice give people (who can do them) better access to the prefrontal cortex (executive). But once there, there is another step that has to be done in order to achieve permanent changes to connectivity. I hope this makes sense.
It does make sense. I wonder though, if i have failed to convey what I mean by "meditation." Let's put aside that word and look at your comment regarding what is needed:
" training the executive to ‘listen’ to limbic information—mostly transmitted via our feelings—and receive this information without interruption. The more we practise, the better the connections will be. This is permanent and the outcomes are observable in my work and my personal practice as a matter of routine."
Ok, now I'm going to give you a definition of Flexible attention and open hearted awareness
DEFINITION: From the center of awareness (Siegel's hub) attending, in a fluid, spontaneous way, to the MANNER IN WHICH ONE IS ATTENDING, allowing, in an open, non judgmental manner, the full range of information not only from emotions (limbic) but from instinctive and even the most subtle physiological information, while remaining open to intuitive awareness beyond the rational."
In my research on non judgmental attention to pain sensations, I scoured the literature distinguishing between "reduction in perception of pain" and physiological changes. In the 1990s, the literature was somewhat iffy, but in the 22 years since, there is a wealth of information showing that the kind of attention I'm speaking of in fact brings about change - lasting change - not only in the physiology but the anatomy of the brain, and not only the brain, but the ANS, endocrine, musculo-skeletal and other systems of the body.
The mind-gut connection (affects of the CNS on the enteric nervous system) shows quite radical physiological changes, long lasting, not only in the biome but other aspects of the action of neurons, hormones and more.
I don't think we're actually disagreeing. I already had problems with the way people were using the word "meditation" (and even worse "mindfulness") back in the 1970s when I first began examining the research. I gave up in 1999 (after having my dissertation accepted by a journal, but choosing not to follow through) because I felt a whole different approach was needed.
Whether we call it meditation or not, obviously I fully agree that there are ways of training the prefrontal cortex that leads to permanent changes in connectivity. Whether we call this mindfulness, meditation, contemplative prayer, attention training, or just good therapy, is, to me, of relatively little concern.
hi again - I would just add, I'm working on an online sleep course. The history of non-pharmaceutical insomnia treatment is one of trying (pun intended) to help people STOP "trying" to get to sleep. This effort fulness is another sign of the "control" attitude that is endemic in our society (we may see it more intensely in traumatized individuals but it seems almost all pervading)
There is a new trend (an old one dating back thousands of years, of course) in "effortless mindfulness," of which Adyashanti and Loch Kelly are exemplars. But you don't have to go to meditation techniques for this - Psychologist Les Fehmi, for over 45 years, simply taught people to notice "space" (space in the mind and "physical" space "out there") which led to dramatic reductions in trauma symptoms, anxiety, depression, chronic pain and much more.
I wouldn't mind a temporary "stop" for the words "meditation" or "mindfulness" and instead gently, flowingly, guiding people to become acquainted with the magic, ever accessible riches of attention, awareness, open-minded/open heartedness, etc.
Thanks Don. It’s nice to hear about your work and your interests as well as your thoughts and thank you so much for subscribing and taking the time to read my stuff. For me as a practitioner of psychotherapy, a really important point is for people to grasp that change in us does not happen in the ‘ether'. It happens in our embodied brain. There is no real and lasting change in us without changes in brain connectivity. The better the flow of energy and information is in the brain, the closer we come to becoming what we call ‘healthy’ psychologically, which of course impacts on our physical health, our behaviour in relationship with others and our ability to fulfil our potential. Please keep telling me about your work when you get a chance. I have just published another article. Wonder what you would think about it… Best wishes.
Thanks Avigail. From your comment "the flow of energy and information in the brain," which sounds like Dan Siegel's definition of mind ("flow of energy and information") I assume you're familiar with his work. I like his reminder that the embodied change you're beautifully reminding us of occurs in the brain, throughout the body, and in a way (as the people who subscribe to the "enactive cognition" like to say) in relationship - relationship to others, and to the world at large. Siegel refers to this as "transpirational integration."
I'm also in the midst of revising our website, and just after I wrote the last comment to you, I went back to edit a section on neuroplasticity, placebo and epigenetics. Even in the past 8 years or so when I first wrote the pages on those topics, the research on these has exploded. Our every thought ("thought" meaning integrated thought/emotion/impulse/sensation) has the potential to "turn on" or "turn off" various genes for all kinds of physical and psychological phenomena (epigenetics); our "faith" (embodied belief) can have profound physiological effects on virtually every system of the body; and the brain changes - often with permanent effects - every time we engage in sustained, integrated mind-emotions-embodied attention with sufficient affective and volitional intensity.
Truly a remarkable time to be doing therapy!!
Absolutely, and you are correct, Don. My therapeutic framework is based on Siegel’s Interpersonal Neurobiology. If you read my short book _Therapy Without A Therapist_ I explain it all there. Please share the link to your website. Are you a colleague? Avigail
Did mostly psychological evaluations (several thousand of them), devoted most of my time to working on the integral yoga psychology of Sri Aurobindo. I'll be delighted to share the link - it may be awhile (some weeks before our site is fully revised)
Actually, come to think of it, I quoted Siegel from time to time, even in the evaluations I wrote for judges who were on the verge of turning down applicants for disability applications. Although the attorneys I worked for said my evaluations were always helpful, I don't think the disability judges ever quite knew what to make of references to the wheel of awareness or upper lower or left right brain integration!
Is this you? https://lagracecenter.com/speaker/don-salmon/
Of course they didn’t, but I am glad you are educating people nonetheless. :)
Who was the theoretical physicist?
Hi JPS,
It was Dr John Hagelin. His bio as was offered by the organisers of the talk (The Scientific & Medical Network) reads:
"Dr John Hagelin is a world-renowned quantum physicist, educator, public policy expert, and leading proponent of peace. Dr Hagelin received his M.A. and Ph.D. from Harvard University, and conducted pioneering research at CERN (the European Center for Particle Physics) and SLAC (the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center). His scientific contributions in the fields of electroweak unification, grand unification, super-symmetry and cosmology include some of the most cited references in the physical sciences. He is also responsible for the development of a highly successful grand unified field theory based on the superstring. Dr Hagelin is therefore among the elite cadre of physicists who have fulfilled Einstein’s dream of a “theory of everything” through their mathematical formulation of the unified field—the most advanced scientific knowledge of our time."
Another excellent run through on the malign influence of materialism upon scientific research and the limits it places upon our development as a species. Speaking truth to power and rejecting fear. 👍💚
I found this a fascinating exploration of materialism and its pitfalls. Thank you so much Avigail for such an interesting piece. I am indebted to you to know that 'mitochondria in our cells display social behaviour' - how far-reaching is that going to be??!!
Thank you so much Jude for your very kind comment. Yes, if science works honestly the truth will eventually emerge. It was Thomas Kuhn who said that paradigms shift when the weight of ‘anomalies’ becomes too heavy, or something like this. The truth cannot be hidden for too long. It has a way of revealing itself… Thank you for the important work you do and for reading my articles.